I’m having a discussion with a Christian about the applicability of the Old Testament (OT) to Christianity. I said:
If the OT is the word of God not a bit of the laws in it can be abrogated. If you start cancelling laws (and one of the Big Ten at that [note: stoning adulterers]) then it can’t possibly be the word of God. Because by definition God can’t make mistakes.
All the “Christian” thinkers from the time of Jesus until today have been muddled on the subject. To an outsider it looks like “Christians” still have the punishment gene in their blood and the message of love is getting lost.
So tell me. on what basis do Christians decide on who is to be punished and how much? I see no rational basis in operation.
I in fact as a libertarian have a rational basis. Murder, initiation of violence, theft, fraud. And that is it. It can be summed up as “consenting adults”. Also limited government. And guess what? None of my rational basis for laws precludes the love Jesus prescribes for the ills of the world.
The correction if sin should be left to the private sector. And we are starting to see numerous examples of “sin” that isn’t sin. Drug “addiction” is looking more and more like self medication for PTSD. Why are we punishing people in pain? Don’t you think that is evil? I do. Why would Christians be advocates for evil? Well you tell me.
And gay? There is pretty good evidence it is caused by hormones in the womb. We know that is true for animals. So how can you even consider punishing people for biology? I’m sure there is lots more out there. Those are two I’m most familiar with.
Do you want limited government or a police State? Because the only way to go after consenting adults is secret police. Lots of secret police. Because who knows what “crimes” are being committed in secret? And once you arrive at that point – every one is a suspect.
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23 responses to “Rational Basis”
Both the OT and NT flatly contradict themselves in numerous places. So do the quotes attributed to Jesus, one time a mild pacifist, another a vengeful attacker.
The great theological problem for both Orthodox Jews and Catholic/Orthodox Christians is how to derive a consistent theology from such texts. They do so by suppressing the contradictions, e.g., roasting the Paschal lamb is the same as boiling. Modern mainstream Protestant sects have discarded most of the Bible (Luther is their warrant), and substituted modern conceits for the troubling parts.
If you don’t think this is a real problem, even bigger than the one you cite, please note that since the acceptance of sola scriptura and every man a priest by the early Protestants, some 30,000 different Protestant sects have arisen. Collectively, they disagree about everything and cite chapter and verse for their positions. Then there are the Mormons, gnostics with their own text and only a tenuous connection to traditional Christianity.
Christians have the additional problem that the bulk of their theology, including the Trinity, is straightforward classical Greek philosophy, which has no basis is Scripture.
It is utterly hopeless to make rhyme or reason of this mess. Don’t try.
PS. All this assumes that Jesus, David, Moses, et al., the bondage in Egypt, the Exodus, etc., existed, which can be doubted.
Mainline Protestant denominations believe the NT supersedes the OT. Whenever there is a conflict, the NT wins.
Our churches views the OT as a history of the development of the human relationship with God – not the final word on how that relationship works.
The OT is one of the world’s most valuable historical documents. Many a 19th Century British Archaeologist made his name by reading it and following the clues to an ancient city or battle – then digging. It is also fascinating because the characters, even the heroes like David, are presented with all their flaws and mistakes fully exposed.
There is no contradiction. Just a different dispensation. We are in the Age of Grace. If you are looking for an excuse to reject God, you will always find it. js
Bob,
I was under the impression that there was some coherency with a few errors (like the one’s I pointed out). I had no idea.
Bram,
IMO they would do better if they gave up the OT altogether. The Jews have. They do it cleverly though.
The old laws are all in effect. But the enabling legislation makes them impossible to enforce. Clever boys.
Bob,
The resurrected God is older. Egyptian. Osiris.
Jesse,
Why would I reject God. “He” and I are in constant communication. No intermediaries required. That reduces message distortion. Considerably.
Why would anyone need a Book if they were listening to the direct communication always available? Books no matter how current are yesterdays messages.
The “word of God” in Christianity and Judaism is metaphorical for almost all sects. The OT/NT may be inspired by God but are not the literal word of God. This has kept the two religions out of the trap that Islam fell into. Al-Ghazali won the argument and Islam now holds that the Koran in Arabic is the literal word of God.
Hmm,
So god speaks Arabic. And all this time I thought he was an Englishman. Maybe god is T.E. Lawrence? At least, that’s what the Venn diagram tells me.
remember it is an english translation from greek. example thou shall not kill. kill comes from the greek word kili which means murder. other examples abound in king james version.
Greek and Roman pagans admired many things about the Jews, but were repulsed by circumcision, enjoyed pork entirely too much to give it up and thought much of the ritual and practice was just tedious and annoying.
Whatever else it is, being an orthodox Jew just isn’t much fun. Which was a real buzz kill to classical hedonists.
Christianity was invented by saint Paul as a watered down Judaism for pagans by leaving out the more objectionable restrictions, and by incorporating familiar pagan themes like virgin birth (Athena), dying and resurrected gods (literally hundreds of them in early agricultural societies), hell (Tarturus), the after life (Elysian Fields) and so on.
The whole point of the exercise was to allow Christians to pick which old testament strictures to obey and which to ignore.
God the dad spoke biblical Hebrew, God jr. spoke Aramaic, which is basically illiterate Greek spelled in Hebrew characters.
And the word translated as “witch” in the KJV actually means “poisoner”. And “Alma” in Hebrew doesn’t mean virgin, it just means a young woman.
Jehova probably started life as a volcano god. He’s always appearing as a pillar of fire, or burning brimstone. Prophets go to mountain tops to commune with Him. Samson carried the pillars from the temple to a mountain top,probably to return them. The ark of the covenant might have contained rocks from mt. Ararat. After the Babylonian captivity the Hebrews were physically removed from their pet mountain, and had to invent the concept of god being infinite and everywhere to compensate.
The two mainstream arguments for drug prohibition still come down to the Mr. Mackey, “drugs are bad, mkay?” and the Michael Medved, “drugs have always been illegal”.
The biblical injunction isn’t against drinking, only against getting so drunk your clothes fall off.
3M wrote; “And “Alma” in Hebrew doesn’t mean virgin, it just means a young woman.”
Good thing too. Otherwise this song would be much shorter and a lot less fun!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zWFEy1lVUMI
Did you ever get around to discussing how many angels can dance on the head of a pin? Just wondering.
To quote Friday,
“First, measure the head of the pin. Then measure the angel’s arses. Divide B into A. The answer is left as an exercise for the student.”
37
Would the dance the angels are doing affect the number of angels that could dance on the head of any given pin? I would think so.
I like the part where God creates the Earth 4 billion plus years ago. Then God abided his time until 5,000 years ago when he revealed himself to some primitive shepherds and instructed the men to slice their dongs.
3M wrote: “37”.
You must have some fat-arse angels!
I came up with 42. For the obvious reasons.
Randy
I’ve been assuming that the Macarena is the angelic dance of choice. To honor the inventor of the internet, of course.
37 are slam dancing. The other 5 were tossed out for stage diving.
Fat Angel