Vaccinations

I don’t understand how any libertarian could support mandatory vaccination. Let’s ignore the bogus “swing your microbes” argument, and look at the underlying assumptions which are all false: Vaccines aren’t effective, they are harmful, and they weren’t responsible for the decrease in disease. So how can a libertarian justify such an assault on anyone’s body and health?

The actual solution is complete freedom of choice in healthcare and an end to the state enforced medical monopoly. All of these diseases can be immediately halted even after infection with chlorine dioxide with no harmful side effects. In a society with medical freedom this would be well known and used and vaccines would be a medical horror story from the past.

Just a guy

“I wonder how the people who feel “It’s my choice whether I vaccinate or not” feel about letting food service workers choose whether or not to wash their hands.”

Best answer? That’s an incredibly stupid answer.

Gentlemen,

The resurgence of whooping cough….

So the question is “can public health measures be made mandatory”. Is there a commons in public health?

Is there a commons in National defense? Is there any commons that libertarians should honor?

Or do I have to sue?

Kathy Kinsley

I do believe that if I were a mother, I would think that whooping cough might be a bit worse than a shot to prevent it.

As a non-parent, I have NO sympathy for those who refuse to vaccinate. (Short of some sort of immune deficiency disorder on the part of the child.)

Kathy Kinsley

Oh – and, as a libertarian, I do believe that any school has the right to refuse entry to any student who does not meet the rules. Including vaccination.

David

“Gentlemen,

The resurgence of whooping cough….”

Much of which is occurring in vaccinated people, which doesn’t say much for the effectiveness of the vaccine.

But even if this is a result of non-vaccination, how does that justify the many deaths and lifetime disabilities caused by the vaccines? These are so prevalent that vaccination couldn’t survive without immunity from liability. You can justify anything if you only look at the benefits and ignore the harm. Of course it is difficult to measure the benefit/harm ratio, but a good indicator is the necessity of immunity from liability for the vaccine makers to survive. That would seem to indicate that the harm outweighs the good.

I have no problem with people taking the risk of vaccination for themselves or their children. But I see absolutely no justification for forcing vaccination and then eliminating all liability for the harm done by the vaccines.

David

“Oh – and, as a libertarian, I do believe that any school has the right to refuse entry to any student who does not meet the rules. Including vaccination.”

I agree as long as I can also refuse to pay for the *!%$ school.

Frank

Is that you, Jenny McCarthy?

But even if this is a result of non-vaccination, how does that justify the many deaths and lifetime disabilities caused by the vaccines?

Do you follow the probabilities?

What are the odds of one vs the other? If vaccines kill 1 in 100,000 and whooping cough kills 1 in 1,000 (I have no idea of the real numbers those are just for illustration). How would you bet? When whooping cough was widely prevalent people thought the vaccine was marvelous. Despite the risks.

You want a risk free world? Explain to me how to get that.

The anti-vaccine people are hoping to pull to an inside straight. Every time. When vaccination rates were high they got their card. As rates go down their odds get worse. As do those for whom the vaccine doesn’t take.

Fear makes people stupid. I prefer to live without fear.

I agree as long as I can also refuse to pay for the *!%$ school.

Nothing is stopping you from not paying except your unwillingness to suffer the consequences.

I pay the tax and agitate for reform.

David

Simon,
The problem with trying to calculate the odds is that we simply don’t know all of the negative effects. Call it the Bastiat effect in medicine. We can see the immunity but all of the negatives aren’t seen.

We are running a vast forced medical experiment without any controls and no real examination of results. But if you look at the effects of adjuvants such as aluminum, you see a whole raft of potential negative effects. Autoimmune diseases, allergies, asthma, autism, ADHD, Alzheimers,.. the list goes on and on. Inflammation is now being shown to be a primary cause of premature aging, and the sole purpose of adjuvants in vaccines is to produce a generalized inflammatory effect throughout the body. Rates of all these diseases are skyrocketing for “unknown reasons” along with vaccine rates. Now I know correlation is not causation, but in this case there is good theoretical reason to suspect causation from what we know of the affects of the adjuvants on the immune system. But the key point is that the long term effects of all these vaccinations are simply not known. The science hasn’t been done.

All of this risk is unnessary.

Any disease caused by bacteria or viruses can be immediately cured within hours or days by chlorine dioxide (some like Aids may take weeks). So why take the risks of the vaccines at all? And you living in fear of these diseases is solely due to your ignorance of the effectiveness of CLO2. And since these diseases are curable with minimal time and virtually zero cost, the justification for state mandated vaccines completely disappears.

If you get sick and don’t immediately cure yourself with CLO2, it certainly isn’t my fault, it is yours. The cure is there, use it. Or use it on a regular preventive basis and don’t get sick at all (my approach). Don’t use the power of government to force harmful injections of toxins into my body.

And, Simon, I admire you greatly. But in this instance you are forwarding the medical establishment and drug industry propaganda campaign. Take a red pill for God’s sake. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zE7PKRjrid4

David,

You are ignoring history. When the whooping cough vaccine first arrived on the scene there was little resistance because whooping cough was feared.

All that has happened to change the odds is that we have forgotten those fears.

Evidently we are in the process of learning them again the hard way.

All disease can be cured nearly instantly by strychnine.

And you are leaving out anti-biotic resistance.

I’m going to go out on a limb here and tell you what I think. You are too smart by half.

And a cure for aids? I must not be keeping up. Hadn’t heard of it.

And if all these marvelous cures are about why is whooping cough resurgent? That doesn’t fit your faith.

David

Simon,

CLO2 is completely harmless to our body cells, unlike strychnine.

No disease organism can adapt to CLO2 due to the kill mechanism.

Why is there still disease given these facts? Because the FDA is in attack mode, as they are with anything that threatens the medical and drug establishment profits. Because there is no possible way to make money from it. And because well meaning people like you, even as smart as you are, won’t believe it or even bother to do the most basic research. For example, CLO2 handles MERSA skin infections in a matter of minutes to hours. I had a friend with MERSA infection that was possibly life threatening, yet he wouldn’t even try CLO2 because his doctor didn’t know about it. Fortunately antibiotics finally handled it in his case, with great cost and suffering but in many others they don’t. Yet this guy was willing to risk dying when a perfectly good almost costless and completely riskless cure was right there for him to use. People are totally brainwashed by the sea of medical propaganda designed to keep them as paying customers.

I can’t give you all the science in this forum, but search CLO2 or MMS. It may very well save your life someday in this world of increasingly nasty antibiotic resistant bugs.

Meanwhile don’t tell me I need to be poisoned for the better good.

And don’t disparage my knowledge as “faith” when you have done zero research in the area and I have studied it and used it for years with excellent results. It is a nice snarky internet argument technique, but doesn’t add anything to the discussion (though to be fair, I guess I started it with the red pill comment, for which I apologize).

But you never explained why with all this wonderful anti-disease stuff available whooping cough is back?

So far what I have found about ClO2 is that it is a good water purifier at about 1/4 the concentration of Cl2. That doesn’t give me a lot of non-toxic vibes. But I have more reading to do.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/16206725

RECOMMENDATIONS AND OUTLOOK:

Due to its very reactive nature, chlorine dioxide is rapidly (in a few hours) reduced to chlorite, which is persistent also as a biocide but 16 times less toxic to fish, according to MATC. Therefore, it is much more likely that fish will be exposed to chlorite than to chlorine dioxide in natural waters. Presently accepted, the Maximum-Permitted-Concentration of total residual chlorine (TRC) in waste-water discharging into receiving waters is 0.6 mg/l. If this requirement will not be exceeded, it is unlikely that fish would be exposed to lethal or even to sublethal concentrations of chlorine dioxide or chlorite. Furthermore, chlorine dioxide does not generate toxic nitrogenous (chloramines) or carcinogenic organic residuals (trihalomethanes). All these properties make chlorine dioxide a more promising biocide than chlorine.

====

A safer biocide. Well that gives me a LOT more confidence.

https://www.google.com/#q=MMS+

And this page wasn’t too helpful:

re: http://classicalvalues.com/2014/03/vaccinations/#comment-110032

So what you are telling me is to get on board with bleach. OK.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Miracle_Mineral_Supplement

Oh, Did you mean this mms?

Miracle Mineral Supplement, often referred to as Miracle Mineral Solution, Master Mineral Solution, or MMS, is a toxic solution of 28% sodium chlorite in distilled water. The product contains essentially the same ingredient as industrial-strength bleach before “activation” with a food-grade acid. The name was first coined by Jim Humble in his 2006 self-published book, The Miracle Mineral Solution of the 21st Century.[1] A more dilute version is marketed as Chlorine Dioxide Solution (CDS).[2] MMS is falsely and dangerously promoted as a cure for HIV, malaria, hepatitis viruses, the H1N1 flu virus, common colds, acne, cancer, and more. There have been no clinical trials to provide evidence in support of these claims, which come only from anecdotal reports and Humble’s book.[3][4] In January 2010, The Sydney Morning Herald reported that one vendor admitted that they do not repeat any of Humble’s claims in writing to circumvent regulations against using it as a medicine.[5] Sellers sometimes describe MMS as a water purifier so as to circumvent medical regulations.[6]

When citric acid or other food acid is used to “activate” MMS as described in its instructions,[7] the mixture produces an aqueous solution containing chlorine dioxide, a toxin and a potent oxidizing agent used in the treatment of water and in bleaching.[8] The United States Environmental Protection Agency has set a maximum level of 0.8 mg/L for chlorine dioxide in drinking water.[9] Naren Gunja, director of the New South Wales Poisons Information Centre, has stated that using the product is “a bit like drinking concentrated bleach” and that users have displayed symptoms consistent with corrosive injuries, such as vomiting, stomach pains, and diarrhea.[10]

Sodium chlorite, the main constituent of MMS, is a toxic chemical[11][12] that can cause acute renal failure[13] if ingested. Small amounts of about 1 gram can be expected to cause nausea, vomiting and even life-threatening hemolysis in persons who are deficient in glucose-6-phosphate dehydrogenase.

I think I’ll stick to strychnine.

David

Interesting that you choose to read all of the stuff trashing CLO2 without reading any of the basic science on why and how it works.
Try this for starters: http://educate-yourself.org/mms/chlorinedioxidebasics004sep12.shtml
or read any of Jim Humble’s books.

The key point from the article is this: “Oxidation potential:
The chemical ClO2 is a weak oxidizer with an oxidation potential of .95 volts. The oxidation potential determines the strength of the ability of an oxidizer, to oxidize other compounds. Chlorine dioxide is the weakest of all the oxidizers that are ever used in the human body. For your reference, oxygen has an oxidation potential of 1.28 volts, hydrogen peroxide has an oxidation potential of 1.80 volts, and the strongest oxidizer ever used in the body, ozone, has an oxidation potential of 2.07 volts. Ref. (7) (Any good chemistry manual will show you that there are only a small number of oxidizers. The only ones that could possibly be used in the body – are the 4 listed here in this paragraph.)”

If you understand this, you understand why it can kill microbes without harming the body.

Anyway, at least you have now answered your question as to why there is a resurgence of whooping cough even though CLO2 could cure it in hours. Too much disinformation on the web and too many people gullible enough to believe it without actually looking at the real science or theory.

Well what strength is the bleach used in? Water purification strength? Or straight out of the bleach bottle strength?

David

It is extremely diluted when used, as diluted as you want to make it. The protocols are based upon the total amount of CLO2, not the concentration. The limitation on how much to take is how much and how quickly your body can eliminate the toxins from the killed microbes. That is the rate limiting function. If you kill too many too rapidly you will feel nauseous. Just back off and take less. The CLO2 itself is not toxic to the body. The CDS form is much easier to take as it has very little taste.
The Basic protocol is here: http://genesis2church.org/mms-protocol-1000

By the way, chlorine bleach is a completely different chemical, which also happens to be chlorine based, just as salt is a completely different chemical that happens to be chlorine based.

David

I just ran across this, which is a much more comprehensive answer to the vaccine issue than I would be able to write:
http://www.livingwhole.org/a-parents-response-to-the-new-york-times-article-eliminate-vaccine-exemptions/

Note that since you are interested in the whooping cough issue, about half way down she addresses this point.

Eliminate the toxins? CLO2 is itself toxic. Death has resulted from excessive doses and nausea and vomiting (what you would expect) from sublethal doses. I would expect the body can tolerate it in small enough doses. As it does chlorine in water.

Chlorine bleach is different. But ClO2 breaks down to chlorite in fairly short order. (it is in the report linked above on water purification) Which is the active ingredient (when added to water) in bleach.

If I was to diagnose your case (hazardous at best) I’d say placebo effect. Which works well enough as long as you can maintain your faith.

BTW re: your exemptions article: the only perfectly save medicine I’m aware of is cannabis. And even then it is possible to get into trouble.

And of course a vaccine would be associated with the same things as the disease. It is supposed to trigger an immune response. But at a lower – non-lethal level than the disease. It is how vaccines are SUPPOSED to work. And how they in fact work. Is death the occasional result. Yes. But compare that to the death rates before vaccines.

I’ll take my chances with vaccines. The odds look good.