This is the State:
11 He said, “This is what the king who will reign over you will do: He will take your sons and make them serve with his chariots and horses, and they will run in front of his chariots.
12 Some he will assign to be commanders of thousands and commanders of fifties, and others to plow his ground and reap his harvest, and still others to make weapons of war and equipment for his chariots.
13 He will take your daughters to be perfumers and cooks and bakers.
14 He will take the best of your fields and vineyards and olive groves and give them to his attendants.
15 He will take a tenth of your grain and of your vintage and give it to his officials and attendants.
16 Your menservants and maidservants and the best of your cattle and donkeys he will take for his own use.
17 He will take a tenth of your flocks, and you yourselves will become his slaves.
18 When that day comes, you will cry out for relief from the king you have chosen, and the LORD will not answer you in that day.”
And you want to put THAT in charge of the wombs of your women?
God help you.
Comments
27 responses to “We Must Have A Law”
I’ve already responded to you on the other thread. You have not responded to me.
Ahh, but Simon, before the King, was the Law, the Judges, and the Council of Elders.
I couldn’t resist that one.
This sounds more like an indictment against Obama in particular, and statism in general.
Simon, I hope you won’t mind this meshugenah, old, widowed goy responding to to some of Joey’s questions.
Joey, they only reference you will find in our Bible is a reference to miscarriage as a result of violent behavior at Exodus 21:22 and 23. The texts that Simon refers to are in the Talmud. The Talmud was an oral tradition (judicial case history) that outlined the finer points of Jewish Jurisprudence and was passed down from Judge or Rabbi to disciples who became Rabbis and Judges and passed it on to their disciples. At the time of Christ ministry (30CE to 33CE) the Great Sanhedrin (the Supreme Court of Jewish Law) was in the early process of gathering and beginning to convert the most prestigious of these oral traditions to written texts. Even the earliest of those texts refer to the late stage fetus as less than fully human and more a part of the mother. Children were not considered an individual until the actual appearance of the head or half of the body in case of breech. Abortion at any stage prior to actual pushing in labor was not considered homicide. Christ makes a statement in Mathew 5:18 that Simon may interpret as supporting these beliefs. The early church however separated from Jewish tradition in this regard and took a slightly more Aristotelian view of the beginning of life and placed
it at “the quickening” (around the 15th week). Simon probably could give you Mishna and verse references but unless you’re ready to convert I doubt you would consider them “Holy Scripture”.
I realize I’m talking about changing what may be a 3400 year old legal tradition of those G_d has chosen to preserve the knowledge of His being through the darkest of times in history. Still I have to believe there is a functioning human mind; however alien its perceptions and attempts at thought, well before the crowning of birth.
The attempt to solve the problem of abortion through law is just more statism.
You will have black markets and as ugly as things are now it will be worse.
We have two examples in our history recent. Alcohol Prohibition in our past and Drug Prohibition currently.
What did we learn from those? You not only have people making bad decisions (maybe for good reasons maybe not) but you definitely have “pushers” pushing immediate decisions. Maybe pushing some people to do things they might not otherwise do. And because of the clandestine nature of black markets the decisions must be made in haste.
Yes. we do have some “pushers” now. Multiply the number when the profits go up due to black market prices.
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Will,
I was never a very observant Jew. I just had the good fortune to be friends with the Rabbi’s kids and thus spent my Saturday afternoons studying Talmud and Mishna. Some of the lessons stuck. The lesson on abortion being one. I was also interested in whose ox was gored. The rulings seemed so similar to today’s tort law. Very modern. And yet 2,000 years old.
If you study the Bible and Torah the constant theme is: if you listen to God you don’t need so many laws. Or as I like to say “The persuasion of Jesus is better than the sword of Rome.”
My take is that we/the world have stopped listening and thus the current tribulations. And our sin? The worst of all. Hardening our hearts.
The first mate and I were again discussing the abortion question. She told me (and who would know better) that very few women make that decision lightly. While the popular assumption is that the decision is given no more thought than choosing between a Baby Ruth or a Snickers bar. Or sticking to the diet.
We are half animal and half God. You have to make allowances. You have to maximize teaching and minimize commanding. Even in places where it hurts.
Too much commanding and you get rebellion. And that is not a good thing. From our modern scripture:
“Prudence, indeed, will dictate that Governments long established should not be changed for light and transient causes; and accordingly all experience hath shewn, that mankind are more disposed to suffer, while evils are sufferable, than to right themselves by abolishing the forms to which they are accustomed.”
We have just about reached the insufferable stage.
For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places.
I have read that we will be lead out of this darkness in the seventh year of our troubles. It seemed like as good a prophecy as any to me. But first we will have to have a change of heart. And one of those changes is to curb the desire to criminalize all sins. Some of them (those not crimes) you have to live with.
Redefining abortion as murder does not make it so.
BTW one of the other aspects of Jewish law that stuck was the laws of slavery. Quite different from the American slave laws. And you know what? American slaves knew those old Jewish laws to some extent. Which is why they sang of Jubilee. Some one had to teach them Jewish law. We have in fact devolved.
http://www.georgetowncollege.edu/ugrri/research-and-resources/anti-slavery-songs/jubilee-song/
Why are we looking to history/the Bible to justify either side of the abortion debate?
It comes down to the question of if/when fetuses are entitled to human rights, and thus legal protection. That’s a very difficult question, and reasonable people can disagree about a very serious issue.
I guess if you think fetuses aren’t human until they’re born, then abortion is purely a private matter and any regulation would be an intrusion.
Until we can agree on what exactly is entitled to basic human rights, I don’t what yelling at each other will accomplish.
So how do we cure the problem of fractional reserve banking?
Look to Jewish law.
The Great Jubilee year was not just about slavery. It was also about debts.
What is our problem today? No debts can be canceled. And especially debts of Governments. They will make us all slaves.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t-HiXqqUItM
Stan,
Why are we looking at an old tradition? Good question. Because it was wrestled with a long time ago and the people then came up with what I believe is a workable solution.
They didn’t know as much as we know now? True. But their knowledge didn’t differ in essence. Just detail. They couldn’t SEE the beating heart in real time. But they could feel it.
You should read the Talmud on the question some time. The debate is not too far from what we see today.
In addition Christians have to deal with the fact that Jesus knew that law (if he was the scholar claimed) and yet didn’t remark on it. He did remark on adultery which was a Commandment.
I don’t want the State in my mate’s parts. They already go to far jailing for traffic infractions which includes strip searches.
With G_d’s help I can have more patience than Job on this subject, for it is not likely to be resolved soon. Speaking of Jubilee, The sale of indentured service by Hebrews to other Hebrews was ended when the year of the Great Jubilee stopped being observed (except for non payment of taxes or criminal acts). Sometimes, tradition changes. Sorry, when I haven’t slept for a few days I can get ridiculously verbose. I’ll give it a rest now. Shalom.
Will,
Thanks for your contribution.
Oh heck,just one more. Stan, we’ve done more secular discourses and covered life at conception versus viability and brain development/function. We’ve also discussed chimeras, the morning after pill, spontaneous abortions, and fertilized eggs that fail to implant, but it always comes down to same ancient argument; do the unborn deserve any human rights and when. I doubt I’ll ever sway Simon unless his wife pitches in and helps an awful lot, but I do appreciate his courtesies when I air my views.
Simon,
We have stuck with the “jubilee” concept to this day. It’s called bankruptcy, and it’s terribly important to society–the only alternatives are slavery or periodic jubilee.
Sovereigns don’t need jubilee–they can repudiate their debt at any time, and often do. They usually have little difficulty re-entering the debt market afterwards, too.
There is only one example of non-dischargeable debts in our society, and it’s a potentially catastrophic one. That would be student loans, for which there is no bankruptcy relief.
We have a third example you didn’t mention. America before Roe VS Wade. It did involve black markets, it was ugly. And only the rich girls (D&C for polyps, if you could bribe the doctor) had any hope of a safe abortion.
The rest got to go to homes where they had the baby and gave it to someone else.
I was one of those babies. And the state I was born in still will not let me look for biological info – EVEN MEDICAL without my adoptive parents’ permission (and from what I’ve heard, even then, it’s very difficult).
I have one death certificate now, and from my mother, the one most opposed to me searching. But I just can’t ask my father.
But that’s ok. Kids don’t care, do they – as long as someone brings them up. Go google numbers of adoptees in therapy vs “real” children. And then tell me your god would have put me in Limbo at best if I’d been aborted. Which, btw, is where I am now.
http://www.bastards.org/.
Oops – let me clarify, you have to have a death certificate or signed permission (with a justice of the peace’s seal).
Neil,
Quite right. Bankruptcy.
The question is: how did knowledge – which is practically free these days get a government buy in so as to be worth a $ trillion aggregate? What makes schools so special? Or maybe it is the banks that make the loans.
Second why do we have too big to fail firms when bankruptcy would have cleared the decks?
One way (failure) or another (inflation) the money is getting flushed.
Kathy,
I get your point. I think. I’m still against the State forcing people to do things.
My mate is rabidly anti-abortion. And yet she is against laws. I think that is generally the view in the US. Which is why the antis make a lot of noise about how the US is anti-abortion. And yet nothing gets done.
On the matter of abortion I defer to my mate and my mother. Neither of which favor laws. What does that leave for the antis? Persuasion. And if you look at the stats that has been working fairly well.
This argument can be used against government regulation of nearly anything.
Wait a moment, it’s starting to make a little more sense now…
Simon, will you please stop spinning this nonsense yarn about your “mate” being rabidly anti-abortion yet still pro-abortion, and that she was thrown in jail for a parking ticket and strip-searched. You’re full of crap.
Also, we don’t know that Jesus didn’t mention abortion. Yes, he mentioned adultery, which is one of the Ten Commandments, just like Thou Shalt Not Kill. But he didn’t mention coveting thy neighbors goods, so he must be okay with that?
Here’s your illogical conclusion: If we can’t find a passage in which Jesus specifically condemns an act in the limited biographies (Gospels) that we have about Him, that must mean that He was okay with it, and we should be too. That one fails.
Simon, when will you answer any of the questions I’ve asked you?
A TENTH of our grain and a TENTH of our flocks?
We should be so lucky!
How about more than HALF of everything we can ever hope to own or earn in our entire lives and then most of the rest when we die?
THAT is the state as we know it today.
The State is not your friend.
@ Joey. Why does it fail? Surely, like his father, he was omniscient? He said a LOT about the important things. And those came down to us.
Difference between left Christians and right Christians is that the left seems to believe that G-d is green. He recycles souls – if a child isn’t born unwanted, it goes to someone who wants him or her. The right seems to believe the soul goes to Limbo or purgatory or something.
Catholics are consistent. God isn’t nice; don’t expect it. The sins of the fathers (and mothers) fall on their children.
We supposedly ate of the “Fruit of the tree of knowledge of good and evil” in the garden. Supposedly our understanding of good and evil is equivalent to G_d’s. If he is the Catholic god, I disown him.
Kathy,
The Catholics allied themselves with the State. No State can be morally pure. The commission of evil to varying degrees is inherent. Jesus never allied himself to the state.
Until religion abjures the state it will be committed to varying degrees of evil.
Joey,
Why don’t I answer your questions? Because I don’t buy your premise. Which is that only the state can solve the abortion question. We seem to be doing quite well in America without state involvement.
Why is that? From some of the women I have talked to it amounts to something like this: “although I considered the abortion necessary and still do I wish I hadn’t done it” Yes it is kind of mixed up but that is what most women say about the experience – word gets around. That is much more effective than laws which would make recounting the experience a danger.
Will says:
I doubt I’ll ever sway Simon unless his wife pitches in and helps an awful lot, but I do appreciate his courtesies when I air my views.
My mate has pitched in. She makes two points:
1. She hates abortion
2. She doesn’t want the state involved
Well Joey,
She was thrown in jail for an unpaid ticket (as I recall it was an illegal turn) and strip-searched. A full body cavity search. It was a week-end and we had to bail her out.
http://www.abajournal.com/news/article/supreme_court_upholds_strip_search_of_new_jersey_man_emphasizes_need_for_ja/
http://conservativebyte.com/2012/04/you-can-get-strip-searched-for-an-unpaid-parking-ticket-thanks-u-s-supreme-court/
http://www.ar15.com/forums/t_1_5/1319456_.html
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http://www.connectamarillo.com/news/story.aspx?id=737825#.UU6WRlevP0w
“We’re arresting people on a daily basis, from minor traffic violations all the way to felony first degree charges,” said Cpl. Jerry Neufeld with the Amarillo Police Department. “The officers will do a pat down search of that individual.”
But once the person is turned over to the county, legally, that person could be strip searched for that unpaid ticket.
“We have to keep drugs and weapons out of the jail,” said Chief Deputy Roger Short with Potter County. “Because we’re responsible for the safety of everyone we do perform strip searches and typically they’re not that intrusive. Occasionally they are.”
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The first mate had one of intrusive searches – for a traffic ticket. She is no friend of the state.
I’m sorry Joey if that does not match what is in your head. Reality does not match neat categories. Reality is what happens not what you imagine.
Since I’m an engineer my job is imagining what could go wrong in an effort to head it off. I pay attention to how the State actually works. You fall into the category of the alcohol prohibitionists who believed “Hell will be forever for rent”. In fact government efforts to right a social wrong by law unleashed a worse hell than the problem it was trying to solve. Which in fact is the usual case.
“Physicists dream of Nobel prizes, engineers dream of mishaps.” Hendrik Tennekes
Can’t believe I posted so much on this. I know better, but it was insomnia fueled. I also know the State always over reacts, and the law always becomes a means to obtain and protect status, wealth, power, and control. If legislation were to curb abortion and save the lives of tens of thousands of unborn, how much responsibility and control would government want to take over those lives? As intrusive as the State is now, if it intruded that much before birth, how much more would it intrude after? Yeah, I can wait, pray, and try to encourage reasoned debate.
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