Classical Values :: manners to die for?

March 10, 2010

manners to die for?

Dr. Helen has reviewed Amy Alkon's book I See Rude People: One woman's battle to beat some manners into impolite society, and she also interviewed the author for PJTV.

In one of her posts about the book (which I bought), Dr. Helen asked what I thought was an excellent (but not easy) question:

If someone is rude in public, do you say anything?

This was my comment at the time:

...in response to the question -- "If someone is rude in public, do you say anything?" -- in my case it would depend on whether the rude person is "reachable." Some people are clearly hopeless -- even hostile and antisocial -- while others may not realize they are being rude. The former, being either deliberately rude or hopelessly ignorant, are likely to attack their correctors, while the latter might learn something, say they're sorry, etc. I don't think it is incumbent on me to police the world's assholes, and when they are being deliberately rude and provocative, policing them means being ready to get into a physical altercation when you might just feel like walking from Point A to Point B. The question arises, "Is it worth it?"

Sometimes, though, when the rudeness involves trampling on the rights of other people, and the other people are not standing up for their rights, it is worth making a scene.

Saying "DON'T LET THAT GUY CUT IN FRONT OF YOU!" is often in order -- even if the line crasher falls into the hopelessly and deliberately rude category as happened to me once when a guy deliberately cut in front of a long bank line and actually sneered at the people who were waiting. When I objected, the spineless people in line did nothing except look guilty, and the teller waited on him (quite improperly in my view). So I escalated the situation by going to the manager, and he scolded me! For interfering with bank policy! The tellers, he said, are trained not to get involved in these disputes, and the more I complained about such a policy, the more irritated the manager became. I realized that to them, I was the problem. I had tried to make my point, and I left in disgust. How far are we to escalate these things? I don't know, but I'm sure I could have done more. Maybe write a long letter to whoever the manager's boss was. (Doubtless someone will tell me what I should have done back in the mid-1980s in San Francisco, but it's too late now.)

I have learned that rudeness often works. Rude people tend to get their way because nice people are nice. So rudeness is enabled by niceness. The result is not nice.

The trick is to somehow stand up to the unbearable assholes of the world without becoming one.

But this does not really address the growing problem of what to do about people who are worse than your garden variety unbearable asshole. My thoughts drifted to the whipping post when I saw one of them throwing down his coffee cup as a way of challenging the world:

I saw a guy throw a coffee cup on the ground over the weekend, and as he glanced glaringly at the people around him it occurred to me that he might consider putting the cup in a nearby trashcan to be beneath his "dignity" -- or even "sissy" behavior. (An unfortunate truth is that society once had the whipping post precisely to deal with miscreants like that.)

The man looked and acted like a scuzzy criminal type of the sort I would describe as beyond "reachable." His conduct struck me as far surpassing ordinary rudeness in that it was deliberately provocative: he clearly wanted someone to tell him to pick up that coffee cup, so he would have an excuse to be violent. If you want to straighten a guy like that out, you have to assume that he will hurt you and be prepared.

There are too many people like that, and today I saw more evidence in a news report about a theater patron who was assaulted with a deadly weapon for asking another patron to turn off her cell phone during a movie:

Deputies say that while the movie was playing, a woman was talking on her phone and the victim asked her to turn it off.

The victim was attacked by the woman's boyfriend and another man. Deputies say he was stabbed in the neck with a meat thermometer.

The situation even turned into a melee:

The stabbing victim is expected to survive and is recovering at a local hospital. Two others who tried to help the victim were also injured, according to KTLA.

Not to be overly dramatic, but an incident like that begs the question of what is worth dying for. Are manners? Scummy, trashy people like that are beyond the reach of manners, and they regard the slightest criticism as justifying violent retaliation, even with a deadly weapon.

This creates an interesting problem for someone who is carrying concealed, because suppose you are carrying concealed, you ask someone in a movie theater to turn off his cell phone, and he stabs you. You're justified in using deadly force to protect your life, but firing a gun in a crowded theater is problematic, so it might be best to just avoid escalating things with people who are deliberately being provocative in crowded public places.

Trouble is, if you complain to the theater ushers, they don't want to get involved either. That nervous pimply-faced kid don't consider his job worth dying for, so most likely the manager will offer you a refund. But that's no good, because you want to see the damned movie and wasted your time going there.

Perhaps we need armed politeness brigades, to engage in armed outreach to the unreachable. There must be a way to politely remind people that an armed society is a polite society.

posted by Eric on 03.10.10 at 02:20 PM

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Comments

Coffee Cup Guy reminds me of Toilet Guy, whom I encountered in a bookstore's men's room. I was finished with the urinal and me and another guy were finishing washing our hands, when this thuggish lumpenproletariat type flushes inside one of the stalls and emrges. He walked right to the door without washing his hands and as he exited, he lared at us as if daring us to say something. It was his way of showing his contempt for society, like Coffee Cuup Guy's behavior was his way.

Bilwick · March 10, 2010 04:33 PM

Mitt Romney recently encountered on such lout on an airplane.

Lovernios · March 10, 2010 05:01 PM

"The trick is to somehow stand up to the unbearable assholes of the world without becoming one."

This is to roll over and die.

The asshole has set the terms of the encounter; to retaliate in kind is not being a asshole, just as shooting a gunman who has opened fire is not murder.

Brett · March 10, 2010 05:16 PM

Bah! You've hit my pet peeve. It doesn't BEG the question, it RAISES the question. Please see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Begging_the_question

Now go forth and beg no more...

Paul · March 10, 2010 07:23 PM

I'm a big fan of being an asshole toward assholes.

It was tough on me because I was in the service industry for many years.
More than once, while waiting tables, I'd have a family where the kid would say, "I want a burger".
The father would angrily tell the kid to say please (at least once accompanied by a light wap to the head) so I'd get a sullen, not looking at me, "Please".
Then the father would say, "Gimme a cheeseburger."
Each time I had to push down the urge to smack him in the forehead and say, "Say please".

Veeshir · March 10, 2010 08:55 PM

I think that there are two parts to this issue. One is that societal stress is elevated due to economic hardship and divisive politics. Lots of people need to blow off steam these days and being intentionally rude may be a way of triggering a cathartic release (although in the case of a violent confrontation, the price of venting may include serious bodily harm). The other factor is the growth of litigious insanity. Even a trivial social admonition exchange can often be turned into an epic civil suit by a hungry unscrupulous attorney. I suspect that the day may soon come where we have no choice but to push back against this epidemic of social degeneration, and as such, it may become necessary to employ new methods for confronting this type pathology. For example, in the situation referenced here, perhaps it would be helpful to bring a small squirt gun containing a mercaptan sulfur solution to the movie theater. Rather than admonish the cell phone user (and risk a confrontation), just covertly spray the offending party's hair and then wait for them to retire to the restroom, where they will vainly attempt to wash out the rotten egg odor. In the event that they notice that you are source the source of the spray, you should have your back-up piece at the ready. Just food for thought.

TomA · March 10, 2010 11:56 PM

Great thought on the mercaptan. You can do that and clear the entire theater complex. That type of response doesn't just affect the individual you wish to punish, it affects everyone.

JohnR · March 11, 2010 02:05 PM

Response to JohnR-

I suppose there is a minor chance of adversely impacting other innocent persons in the theater, but the odor substantially resides with the source solution which would be adsorbed into the clothes or hair mass on the person targeted. As soon that person left the theater, the odor would dissipate quickly. I'm not suggesting that this is an ideal solution to the problem of overt rudeness; only that we are not limited solely to verbal confrontation or surrender.

TomA · March 11, 2010 09:50 PM

Young children can be influenced: slow down, cut it out, others are listening too, what a charming thing to say! (not), is that your mother over there?, I wouldn't want you to hurt yourself, get off my lawn!
It's only going to get worse as the single parent raised lost ones with shrinking prospects and Hollywood crud forming their world view reach twenty.

Bob · March 12, 2010 04:36 AM

This stabbing incident is why we need to push for "shall-issue" concealed carry **everywhere** in the U.S. This thug felt safe stabbing a "shusher" in the movie theater because he assumed, correctly, that the victim was unarmed. Very sad. It's generally safer to say nothing to a jerk like this -- no sense dying for a slight. I know it's a cliche, but our great country has been going down the toilet since approximately 1900, the era of the (original) progressives... For D.C. residents and all others interested, check out my pro-self-defense blog: DC Handgun Info.

DC Handgun Info · March 12, 2010 11:26 AM