"Isn't it ironic to see that the Democrats are against democracy in Iraq?"

It might be, if the it were true, but it isn't. Have you any support for this claim?

If it is true that Democrats are against democracy in Iraq, maybe pro-democracy forces in Iraq haven't been marketing their cause astutely enough. They should promise that they'll turn Iraq into a nanny state where Iraqis can vote themselves heapin' helpin's of someone else's money, The kind of democracy that is, in the words of Mencken, "an auction of stolen goods held before the fact." Then the Democrats could get on board!

Frob,

You are right. Democrats whole heartedly support democracy in Iraq. As long as it doesn't cost any money or require any troops.

How much more supportive can you get than that?

"Isn't it ironic to see that the Democrats are against democracy in Iraq?"

Why? They're against democracy here.

It appears that this is merely a snark topic. I apologize for my humorless insistence on facts and logic. Have fun, all!

Sure it's a snark topic Frob, but I think a review of the positions of the Democratic leadership in this country makes Simon's case pretty effectively. The Democratic party deserves no better than snark.

We all know the facts. The logic is, a political party that is willing, for short-term partisan gain, to push for the abandonment of democratic initiatives around the world, cannot claim to be for democracy. The irony is that this party that is not for democracy calls itself the Democratic party.

The Mencken quote is snarky, too. But that doesn't make it any less true.

Can we just get some Congresscritters that can read their job description and stick to it?

From either party?

"We all know the facts. The logic is, a political party that is willing, for short-term partisan gain, to push for the abandonment of democratic initiatives around the world, cannot claim to be for democracy. "

Perhaps our interpretation of the facts differs. For example, there are many Democrats whose opposition to the war in Iraq dates from a time when it was politically inexpedient to oppose that war.

Even more important, whatever the intentions of those who support the war in Iraq, the notion that democracy can be established in that society is horribly mistaken.

Nice job Frob,

It can't happen there.

Has a snappy ring to it.

However, it is happening there. Regular elections. A Constitution etc.

Are they perfect? Are we?

Even if the democrats we a very small minority in Iraq I would support them. Evidently the Democrats and assorted leftists are not so determined to provide support.

As I said. Democrats against democracy.

If democrats do not control Iraq the head choppers will. I do not see that as a positive. Obviously our Democrat friends see it another way. Probably their experience in turning over Vietnam to the Communists has influenced their opinion. Which has turned out really well for the people of SE Asia.

The Democrats really are the "party of the people". As long as they are the right kind of people. For the Democrats there will be no problem handing Iraq back to despots. After all, they are not our kind.

You keep good company Frob.

"However, it is happening there. Regular elections. A Constitution etc."

The trappings of democracy do not make democracy. Democracy is only real when it functions democratically. The government in Iraq is not in control of the country and it is not functioning effectively. This is no democracy. It is hardly a government.

"Are they perfect? Are we?"

We're not killing each other by the hundreds.

"Evidently the Democrats and assorted leftists are not so determined to provide support."

Supporting an impossible ideal is truly quixotic. The political reality is that any attempt to set up a democracy in Iraq will only yield anarchy leading to civil war leading to the establishment of a tyranny. We are already in the civil war phase. Supporting democracy in Iraq is farcical.

"As I said. Democrats against democracy."

To reject an impossible ideal is not the same as rejecting the concept. Let me turn the tables on this point: Christ said, 'Love thy neighbor as thyself'. This is a noble ideal I'm sure that we all support. But does it mean that we should dismantle our military forces and love our neighbor countries? I think not.

"If democrats do not control Iraq the head choppers will. I do not see that as a positive."

Indeed they will. There is nothing we can do to prevent that. It is inevitable.

The remainder of the above post is snark, not analysis.

You know I have heard rumors of a democratic government set up around 1776 that was not in control of the country. In fact the country was in a civil war when the government was set up.

There is speculation that it turned out OK, but many consider the rumor unfounded.

==

So let me see if I get your logic: the democrats in Iraq are under attack, so since there are folks who want despotism to return we should abandon the democrats to the tender mercies of the supporters of despotism.

How liberal.

==

You are doing an excellent job of proving my point.

Any thing else to add?

Yes, the American democracy was very successful. But Iraqi culture today is worlds away from American culture in 1776. The impossibility of creating a functional democracy in Iraq arises from fundamental cultural factors. Any reasonably astute observer of political evolution could have predicted that democracy would not take root in Iraq. Someday it surely will, but Iraq must undergo considerable political evolution before that can happen. If they're very, very fortunate, they might pull it off in 30 years, but I'd put the most likely figure at something between 50 and 80 years.

"So let me see if I get your logic: the democrats in Iraq are under attack, so since there are folks who want despotism to return we should abandon the democrats to the tender mercies of the supporters of despotism."

No, the democrats in Iraq never stood a chance. We are propping up a regime that can never stand on its own two feet. The bloodletting will continue until a tyrant emerges and imposes the peace of the prison upon Iraq. It's sad, but it's also the political reality there.

"Any thing else to add?"

Yes, I'd be curious to hear your opinion of the situation in Bangladesh. Was the recent anti-democratic coup a positive development in Bangladesh's political evolution?