If Sistani is the answer, then what was the question?

Writing for the National Review, Andrew McCarthy takes a long look at Grand Ayatollah Sistani's utterances on homosexuality (which I discussed earlier) and other subjects.

While the earlier reports were inaccurate and the uproar is new, Sistani's actual opinions are neither new nor (unfortunately) unusual. Sistani is a thoroughly medieval man, and like it or not, fundamentalist Islam is a thoroughly medieval religion. As McCarthy warns, we should not be conflating opposition to terrorism (which Sistani is) with democratic reform (which Sistani is not):

What is dangerously naïve is to conflate two very different, and at times contradictory, goals of American foreign policy: opposition to terrorism and democratic reform in Muslim countries. Let’s say one is inclined to suspend disbelief and regard as an “ally” in the struggle against Islamist terrorism someone whose profoundly influential views actually bolster core conceits of the jihadists. That would still not make Sistani an ally in the related but distinct project to build a democracy recognizable as such.

The only democracy the United States should be building is one based on liberty, equality, the inherent dignity of all human beings, and the conviction that authority to rule is reposed in the people rather than in some external theological or political force. That, surely, is the democracy of President Bush’s soaring rhetoric, if not his administration’s on-the-ground practice. If we are going to sacrifice American blood and treasure on this project, that better be what we are sacrificing them for.

That project calls for a very long-term cultural evolution, one that may take decades if it can happen at all. It is not achieved by a mere election or two’s being given the green-light by a savvy Shiite imam — one who can count, and who sees Shiites outnumbering everyone else by about two-to-one. It is not achieved by a celebrated constitution’s being given the green-light by such an imam only after Islam has been installed as the official state religion and the sharia made a primary source of fundamental law.

To believe Sistani is an ally in that project is to hallucinate.

Sorry, but despite my youthful regular attendance at Grateful Dead concerts, I'm just not into hallucinating at this stage of my life.

Sistani's views on homosexuality ("sodomites should be killed in the worst manner possible") are medieval and despicably inhumane. Yet they've been known for years (I've read that the web site quote has been there for three years), and differ very little from the views of other fundamentalist Islamic clerics.

The problem, I think, involves the inherently medieval, inherently backward nature of fundamentalist Islam. As McCarthy notes, "Sistani’s stated view" is that non-Muslims (that includes me) "should be considered in the same category as 'urine, feces, semen, dead bodies, blood, dogs, pigs, alcoholic liquors, and 'the sweat of an animal who persistently eats [unclean things].'"

Lovely.

All I can say is that mullahcracy sucks. Whether in Iran or Iraq. (Sistani apparently is a hybrid Iranian-Iraqi mullah.) I don't care how long it takes, but I don't think we will have succeeded in our mission until the region is free from tyranny. As Iraqi blogger Mohammad said earlier "Iraq will be the model":

....[T]he old will fight back fiercely and the old here is not only Saddam and the Ba'ath, the old can be found among many of our current leaders and the mentality they carry that belong to the same generation that bred Saddam but I believe they will melt away as well because no one can go against the direction of time and the clock cannot be forced backwards.

The green bud looks weak and is buried in the dirt and surrounded by a tough shell but it will break through this covering, pierce the dirt and stand on its feet to announce a new era.

We will not be defeated and orphans of the dark past will get what they deserve and our sacrifices and the sacrifices of those who stand with us shall not go in vain, our sacrifices will pave an easier road for those want to follow us when they decide it's time for them to change.

And yes... Iraq will be the model.

(Via Glenn Reynolds.)

We dare not let them down.

Far from being the brand-new provocation as they've been portrayed, Sistani's pronouncements have to be seen as epitomizing what Mohammad calls "the old" which is fighting to trample out the new. This is all the more reason not to be in any hurry to withdraw our troops from Iraq. If the troops depart after overseeing the installation of a mullahcracy, shame on the United States.

Right now I'm wondering whether guys like Thomas Friedman aren't in a little bit of a hurry to sanitize and modernize the medieval Sistani to package him for public consumption.

Perhaps the goal is to declare victory and get out.

Well, there are many ways to hallucinate.

(But at least with drugs, the delusions tend to wear off.)


UPDATE (03/22/06): Rather than disagree with what I said, commenters below are putting words in my mouth, and disagreeing with what I didn't say. (I suggest reading my more recent post before jumping to conclusions.)

MORE: My thanks to Pajamas Media for the links to this post!

posted by Eric on 03.20.06 at 03:02 PM





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Comments

I guess it is hard to forget the lesser of two evils remains evil.

Guys like Sistani, and groups like CAIR, should not be given any sort of preferential treatment by the media. There are Middle Easterners who believe in the new, and there are Muslims who believe in separation of church and state. We just never hear about them because they can't get the publicity...

Harkonnendog   ·  March 20, 2006 05:57 PM

Originally, Bush invaded a peaceful sovereign nation for the ostensible purpose of dethroning Hussein, because his WMDs posed a threat. Now, the ostensible purpose of the U.S. being in Iraq is to install democracy. Iraqis have now voted twice and chose a quasi-democratic, constitutional theocracy. Frankly, mission accomplished. It's now Iraqis responsibility to take hold of their own government.

The not-so-subtle clue that Iraq was destined to become a theocracy was the supernumerary addition of the office of "president" to the traditional parliamentary office of prime minister. Those of us who read the proposed constitution before its ratification raised concerns over this very unusual feature. What, we asked, was the purpose of two senior heads of State/government? And why was the president given veto power over parliament? And why was the president's function to guarantee Islamic precepts? The answer to these rhetorical questions was transparent: Iraq was to be a theocracy. The "president" was not a secular functionary, but a religious head of state. That mullahs would occupy the presidential office was also transparent.

Thus, I'd say "missions accomplished." The U.S. may have been too distracted or too oblivious not to raise concerns, but the Iraqis knew what they were after and instantiated it from the beginning. It's too late now to cry over spilled milk. Americans have died and been maimed in order for a democratic theocracy to replace an autocracy. Is the cost worth the result? I sure don't think so.

D,S,H.   ·  March 21, 2006 08:55 AM

"Originally, Bush invaded a peaceful sovereign nation for the ostensible purpose of dethroning Hussein, because his WMDs posed a threat."

These aren't just lies, they are so easily debunked by a 5 minute search that they are more like religious recitations... articles of faith repeated over and over to reaffirm something the speaker HIMSELF knows is based only on faith... It gets so tiresome debunking them though...

I'm not sure if it takes more energy to refute them or if the liars just have more energy... for the record, there were MANY reasons for invading Iraq, and they were all mentioned previous to the invasion. For the record, Iraq was NOT "peaceful." For the record, dethroning Saddam Huseein was NEVER the sole purpose of the invasion... sigh...

Harkonnendog   ·  March 21, 2006 03:17 PM

It is becoming apparent that many in the "gay" community want to include the aversion to homosexuality among the sins of the Islamist. How telling. Well, I've got news for you, as a Christian, I too believe your lifestyle is a perversion! Do I want to see you killed? No. Put in jail? Yeah, maybe!!

Stop the pretense. We won't accept homosexuality as a normal lifestyle -- ever!

Anonymous   ·  March 21, 2006 10:56 PM

He's(Sistani) medieval? And fundamentalist Islam is medieval? Why? Because they, like every major religion on the planet claim that homosexual acts are perverted and sinful and wrong?

Guess I'm medieval, too...ok, where did I leave that damned gauntlet?

I am no fan of Islam, and ascribe to the teachings that say "If there exists ONE muslim, there exists a terrorist." But...the teachings of this guys religion say that homosexuality is wrong, bad, etc.

MY religion has always taught that homosexuality is an abomination.

If we're medieval, then watch out. The homosexuals will soon find themselves floating in the moat.

Bear   ·  March 22, 2006 01:36 AM

Classic values? Classic ethnocentrism. It's laughable that a modern western-reared homosexual or someone sympathetic or tolerant to homosexual lifestyles would project his shallow indignation upon a man who comes from such a medievel culture as Iraq. Calling Sistani a homophobe (what a stupid word!)is like condemning pygmies for being short. To believe a guy like that has any enlightened choice in the matter is a real sign of classic ignorance.

David Lasoff   ·  March 22, 2006 05:15 AM

Rather than defend what I didn't say, I'll repeat what I DID say -- that Sistani's view that homosexuals should be "killed in the worst manner possible" is medieval and despicably inhumane.

Perhaps the argument was not directed at me, but I fail utterly to see how my remarks about Sistani constitute an argument for "acceptance" of homosexuality.

In fact, I have repeatedly defend the right NOT to accept homosexuals. As I have said before in this blog,

"if homos make you sick, then by all means, go get sick! You have a constitutional right to be sickened by anything and everything which sickens you. Just don't get mad at me for not puking."

I would suggest, though that telling a total stranger that you'd put him in jail isn't persuasive of anything. It's simply an ad hominem attack and only invites the same thing in return. (Readers have as much right to advocate sending me to prison as I do to advocate sending them to prison.) I think it's a very strange way to make an argument, and is about as logical as telling someone he should be killed. But there's a right to tell someone he should be killed too. (Whatever floats your moat is fair game.)

Oh, that last comment. Not sure how to respond. Sistani a "homophobe"? I never said that. But if it's "ethnocentric" to disagree with Sistani's philosophy of killing homosexuals, then it would be ethnocentric to condemn honor killings and sexual mutilation of girls. Gotta disagree with you too.

Eric Scheie   ·  March 22, 2006 02:29 PM

Leave your ethnocentric so called Classical Values at home!
Next thing you're going to say that ALL humans are created equal or something! ALL people are NOT created equal. That idea is just another way the West tries to dominate other cultures. And expecting a man from the ME, especially an Arab or a Persian, for God's sakes! to be aware of concepts outside of the ME indicates that you are a racist bigot...

Harkonnendog   ·  March 22, 2006 03:29 PM

Alas! I can't leave my "ethnocentric so called Classical Values at home," because it is this blog's fate to be dragged into the homes of others. I have no defense against this involuntary invasion, and I know not whom to blame.

Eric Scheie   ·  March 22, 2006 04:21 PM

Let this be a lesson, Eric. Say something as controversial as "gay people shouldn't be murdered," and the wackos really come out of the woodwork. It depresses me that there are members of the American right who can find common ground with Sistani on this issue, but such is religious dogma.

john   ·  March 22, 2006 08:43 PM

Well, I'd rather have people honestly say what they think instead of feeling inhibited by the usual self-censorship that surrounds discussion of these issues.

(Obviously, that doesn't mean they're right or that I'll agree with them. And it doesn't excuse rudeness, or obligate me to reply in any way.)

Eric Scheie   ·  March 23, 2006 10:21 AM

Sometimes you're just too nice, Eric.
Oh well. Your blog, your rules.

I'm curious about a few things. I went over to Bear's blog and found an eclectic mix of flowers, poetry, and eastern mysticism. There seems to be a fundamental disconnect between his comment above and the persona his blog presents. Perhaps the moat remark was a joke? I'd love to know for sure, cause the ambiguity is killing me.

Sadly,I have no such doubts about the unknown blowhard Christian. His position comes through loud and clear.

"Well, I've got news for you, as a Christian, I too believe your lifestyle is a perversion! Do I want to see you killed? No. Put in jail? Yeah, maybe!!"

Gosh, a real live Christian, right here at Classical Values! I hope he comes back and reads this. I'd like to ask him a few questions.

First, I'd like to know exactly how long he thinks gay people should be locked up for. Seriously. Forever? Twenty years? Some lesser time yet? How does he figure it? I just want a firm number.

Second, I'd like to know if his "Fudgepackers Behind Razorwire" initiative would involve all gays, or just the most egregious offenders among them. Is there some sort of threshold, a behavioral tripwire as it were, that triggers the Holy Inquisition? If so, what is it?

Third, I'd like to know why he doesn't favor the death penalty for such behavior. After all, it's right there in the bible. Kind of hard to wish it away. Therefore, I'd like to know how he rationalizes his way into disobeying God's Own Word. Doesn't striking off on his own like that sort of obviate the whole "God told me so" argument? I mean, once you start employing your own discretion in these matters, where do you stop?

Now, I've known a number of Christians in my time, and some of them are very fine people. They find this entire issue of sexual taboos to be trivial, a non-starter. Their basic opinion would be that honesty, generosity, and integrity are better indicators of character than where someone puts their naughty bits. If they can do it, Unknown Blowhard Christian might too.

An interesting point arises. U.B.C. says fags should be in jail. Most of the Christians I know find that attitude reprehensible. Yet both sides claim to be Christian, so I'm left with a dilemma. Which Christians should I take as doctrinally pure? Which Christians are the REAL Christians? Who decides such things?

I worked with a Cristian guy once, a young Reagan Republican type, who swore up and down that all Hindus were damned souls.

"All of them?" I asked.

"Yes, all of them."

And you know what? It didn't really bother him too damn much. He figured they had it coming. In my opinion, and please don't take umbrage, this is just a guess on my part, I don't think God sends little girls to hell. And I don't much care what the bible has to say about it. Young Reagan Republican, he had his faith to sustain him, insufferably.

Ironically, he was a Roman Catholic, and since then I have heard Evangelical Christians forcefully maintain that Roman Catholics are NOT real Cristians.

Hey, Unknown Christian? Try not to be a witless witness.

J. Case   ·  March 23, 2006 04:47 PM

J. Case:

For the record I'm a real live Christian and I couldn't disagree more with Bear... what an asshat...

"Which Christians should I take as doctrinally pure? Which Christians are the REAL Christians? Who decides such things?"

It is such a huge question but one answer, MINE, is that the Bible is NOT the literal word of God- it is a bunch of writings by people who had mystical (mystical meaning they had encouters with God in this context) experiences and wrote them down.

This makes it pretty easy to bypass the stuff you don't like and stay with the central themes: Love thy neighbor, Christ loves you, Evil exists due to free will, stuff like that.

My understanding is that this form of Christianity has declined dramatically in the last hundred years- eaten up on one side by people who give up on religion and on the other by Evangelists...

Off topic but I've heard the Koran states that it IS written directly by Allah- Muhammed was illiterate- and that makes this kind of, well, rationalization I guess you could call it, much more difficult for a Muslim than a Christian.

Hark   ·  March 24, 2006 03:16 PM


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