Wow, that article you quoted is the most shameless example of RCC official Pagan-bashing I've yet seen. So now "neo-paganism" is responsible for universal conscription as well as the Holocaust? What will those Palpadictine knuckleheads think of next?

Although proposed by Machiavelli, conscription did not actually begin until the French Revolution. Its actual beginning, like its first conception, thus issued from an explicit rejection of Christianity.

Horsemuffins -- it "issued" from the creation of a new form of government, a (secular) republic, in which (in theory at least) all persons had equal rights, equal stake, and thus equal responsibility to defend the new nation against attack. This was different from feudalism, in which most ordinary people were expected to pay their taxes, farm their plots, obey whoever had mercenaries in their village, and stay the hell out of the affairs of their "betters" to avoid getting hurt (thus no stake and no obligation). "Rejection of Christianity" had nothing to do with it, unless one wishes to equate Christianity with feudalism and monarchy.

Its service, from the beginning, was not made to the one true God nor to Jesus Christ His Son, but rather to the goddess reason...

No, dipsticks, its service is to the state. Which is far more humane than enlisting uneducated peasants to fight in the Crusades, or in the bitter sectarian wars that flared up during and after the Reformation.

The present-day Church's willingness to distort obvious history to scapegoat Pagans (and equate reason with a goddess, just as creationists call evolution a "religion") is really starting to disturb me...

I'd like to chime in with a less stridently-worded criticism of the quote from Father Hugo. He might be surprised to learn that, in the same era that Machiavelli wrote, Pope Julius II staged a triumphal military conquest and entry into Florence, clad in full armor. His suggestion that the Christian era was peace-loving is way, way off the mark. In terms of duration and intensity, the post-Roman Christian era was much more warlike than the Pax Romana. The difference, however, had nothing to do with religious beliefs and everything to do with political instability.

On the primary issue of gays in the military, I've always felt that it's no big deal. The military learned how to work with blacks; they learned how to work with women; why can't they learn to work with gays?

I suspect it's not the gays who are the problem, so much as the gay-bashers and their mindless fear and hatred, which is far less controllable than the gays' sexual desires. Not to mention the hatreds of their spouses and parents, who probably fear that their darlings' morals will be corrupted if they're trained to work with gay colleagues as well as kill people and destroy cities.

Eric,

All-gay units do not work in a vaccuum, and because of that, they don't work at all. It is all about respect and trust, and openly gay men are not respected and trusted in the military. There is a freight train of distrust earned through generations of bad experiences. As a non-commissioned officer, it is my responsibility to look out for the welfare of my subordinates, and that is much more difficult when I have to look out for sexual predators as well.

I have served with gay men in the Navy who stayed closeted and served with honor.

As a heterosexual I am ordered to avoid all sexual conduct when deployed to Iraq or even Kuwait. I know people who got formally punished for hugging friends. Why is nobody suing Rumsfeld so I can get dirty picture magazines sent to me on deployment?

Why are gay people a special class exempt from orders for the good of the service? Why do gay people have greater knowledge on military order than the Joint Chiefs of Staff of the most successful military in the world?

Why is it the end of the world to ask gay men who want to serve in the military to stay closeted?

I am also for sexual freedom, but the only way I can see that happening outside of small enclaves in an ever-diminishing West is to hava a military capable of defending Western cultrue. Adding special classes to the military in no way helps achieve victory.

I have served with gay men in the Navy who stayed closeted and served with honor.

Did you also serve with gay men who admitted they were gay but kept their hands to themselves and served with honor? I'm not attacking you, I'm asking seriously.

Patrick, that is a false dichotomy if ever I saw one. You might as well ask Jewish soldiers to pretend to be Christian while they are in the army. You don't have to be a flirting distraction to be an out of the closet gay. Of course, gay soldiers should keep order just like the rest but that isn't to say they should be forced to pretend they are something they are not.

Raging Bee,

Once somebody outs themself, they are gone in a matter of hours. Yes, I served with non-promiscuous, non-predatory gay men who did their jobs and kept the faith. I also served with predators who set back the efforts of their fellows a generation because they were horny and wouldn't take no for an answer. The effect on morale of the predators was incredibly destructive. They broke faith with their shipmates and made us all less for their failings.

nic,

I have served with just about every religious denomination including satanists, and nobody has ever tried to grope my genitals for religious reasons. As annoying as most sermons are, none in my experience has ever offended me as much as the smug assurance of a sexual predator who was sure that everybody really wanted some.

Military people always pretend they are something they are not, otherwise we would let fear and other emotions rule us. People who bear arms cannot allow themselves to be ruled by their own desires, they must subordinate their personal good to the good of the unit on some very basic levels or they lose wars.

I guess it is a matter of perspective. Everybody in the service understands that they have to surrender certain of their rights in order to protect their country. The gay community does not look past their own perquisites to acknowledge that protecting the whole is worth sacrificing their privileges while in service.

Good luck with the Mullahs, kids.

Patrick: you persist in the false dichotomy between "non-promiscuous, non-predatory gay men who did their jobs and kept the faith" and "sexual predators." I ask again: have you never met a man who, on the one hand, admitted he was gay, and on the other, kept his hands to himself and never bothered any of his colleagues?

Do you really have reason to believe that once a man admits he's gay, the proverbial flood-gates will be open and he will no longer be able to control his desires, even when he's got a ton of work to do and he may not have slept in two days?

Raging Bee,

I am talking about reality, not hypothetical questions. The reality of the military is that everybody has secrets: secret fears, secret failures, secret victories, and secret hopes. Part of what makes military units work is the "pasting over" of individual lapses in order to accomplish the mission and keep the faith.

It may seem like an ephemeral concern to you, but maintaining an even strain is how we survive. We all pretend that we are blue or green. We all pretend that we can take the stress. We all pretend that we do not hurt. We all pretend that we are not angry. Robbing the military of this armor and forcing us to confront the tawdry details of people who we can otherwise trust weakens the military in ways that you don't seem to care about.

If I cannot trust my shipmate to keep their own secrets, how can I trust them to keep mine or the nations?

I have worked with good men and women in civilian life who were gay, lesbian, bisexual, and transgenered. They did their jobs, kept their hands off, and kept their sexuality in the bedroom. I never had to trust them with my sleep, my life, my ship, or my honor.

Being in the military is not about being who you are, it is about being what your country needs to survive. Unless and until the gay community gets onboard with this, they are going to continue to lose this battle so that we do not lose the war.

So, if a straight guy talks about his wife back home, and it doesn't ruin his ability to do his duty, then how damaging is it if a gay guy talks about his partner back home?

Yes, we all have secrets. But since when did honest dialogue between people who have been made close by shared military duty damage morale or discipline? I'm asking about dialogue and honesty, not actual sex acts.

Issues of sexual orientation are not the same as issues of self-control.

Your first post here sounded intelligent, and I'm quite willing to give an experienced military man the benefit of the doubt on this issue; but you don't enhance your credibility by portraying us as ignorant or unconcerned while avoiding direct questions.

"Being in the military is not about being who you are, it is about being what your country needs to survive. Unless and until the gay community gets onboard with this, they are going to continue to lose this battle so that we do not lose the war."

I don't believe it is just the gay community that needs to get on board with this; it seems that almost all advocates of lifting the ban neglect to address that very real point.

The very first issue to be debated in this should be, "Does the US government have the right to deny military service to willing people for any reason?"

So many of the people arguing for lifting the ban assume it is simply a matter of civil rights denied. It becomes futile then to continue the debate, since the pertinent disagreement isn't about openly homosexual people in the military, but about the duty and powers of the federal government.

These kinds of open and honest discussions are good, and the answers are not easy for people who care about the armed forces. I don't like identity politics of any sort, but I don't think the military should be hamstrung by arbitrary blanket prohibitions. I could write a long essay (or two) on the topic of gay military service, but that wasn't the primary purpose of the post.

My main concern here is not fair treatment of gays by the military; it's the loss of uncommon but necessary talent (such as fluency in spoken and written Arabic) as a consequence of a blanket ban on gays, regardless of their actual observed conduct.