Converted to death?

As Glenn Reynolds pointed out, it was "gay day" at the Volokh Conspiracy the other day, and I was quite fascinated to read about the idea of conversion. (Eugene Volokh takes issue with the idea that gays converting straights is a myth. Well, sort of.)

But I'm -- really and truly -- too damned tired to post about it now. I don't know what the hell is wrong with my energy levels lately. I think I'll drink some Korean voodoo juice and go running. Maybe that'll convert my energy levels.


40 minutes later, and back from running, I'll give it a try. Perhaps writing will restore my lost impotent rage. . . Yes, I think if I try hard enough to offend myself, I might be able to coax out a little more adrenaline. (The problem involves a hopeless conflict between my need for sleep and my inability to meet my need.)

Anyway, there's a lot of misunderstanding about what the word "conversion" means, so I should probably begin by trying to define it in the sexual sense. Maybe begin and end -- as I don't know if I can.

I'll start with what Eugene Volokh said:

I know that if I were a heterosexual in some hypothetical future overwhelmingly homosexual society, and I were asked similar questions about "converting" people who were open to heterosexuality but had so far had only engaged in homosexual behavior into practicing bisexuals or heterosexuals, I'd say "yes." If you think some behavior can be proper and, for some group, very rewarding, you would naturally want people who aren't sure whether they fall into that group to try it out.

And if that's true, then gays and lesbians (though not necessarily each gay and lesbian) are trying to get others who have been behaviorally heterosexual, but who might be open to homosexual behavior, to try homosexual behavior. They almost certainly don't see all heterosexuals as likely converts. But they probably do think (with good reason) that some fraction — a substantial fraction compared to the number of pure homosexuals — might well be willing to change behaviors, especially if they are made to feel right and welcome in doing so. And, yes, that would include teenagers as well as fully grown adults. If most people think the age of sexual consent should be around 16 (the legal norm in the country), then I doubt that most gays and lesbians would think that it's wrong to encourage 16-year-old boys and girls who have some same-sex attraction to experiment with that attraction.

Now, as I've suggested, I don't think there's anything inherently immoral about such attempt to convert people away from purely heterosexual behavior, if they are interested in homosexual behavior, and of course if the "conversion" is done without force, imposition on those who are genuinely too young to decide, and so on. If it weren't for the disproportionate and grave health danger from male homosexual activity, I'd think such encouragement to explore which relationships give people the most happiness would be positively quite good.

Responding to an email in an update, Professor Volokh elaborates on the word "conversion":
A bunch of commenters think I shouldn't use the word "convert," for various reasons. The reason I'm using it is that I'm responding to an alleged "myth": People claim that it's a "myth" that gays and lesbians try to convert or recruit others, and I am arguing that this "myth" claim is "likely itself something of a myth, or at least quite incomplete." If you prefer to describe this not as "converting," but as something else (e.g., "influencing the person to change his practices"), that's fine. But if my analysis above is right, then one still shouldn't deride claims of conversion as "myth," even if one thinks that the word is slightly imprecise or has a bad connotation.
My problem with the heterosexual/homosexual dichotomy is well known to regular readers. I don't talk about my own sexuality as much as I possibly should, perhaps because I dislike debating these things, perhaps because it strikes me as exhibitionistic. But I think I should make an exception to my usual pattern and state that:

  • no one ever converted me to anything -- heterosexual or homosexual.
  • I never intentionally converted anyone to anything -- heterosexual or homosexual.
  • I say this because I don't think truly consensual sex can be said to be a conversion. If you do something for the first time with another person, and you do it voluntarily, how can that person be said to have "converted" you unless influence or pressure was applied?

    I am in no way arguing that there are not people who have converted (or attempted to convert) the sexuality of others, either for political or for personal reasons. Nor do I mind the analogy to religious conversion, because a number of people have attempted to convert me to their view of religion, and I am sure that were I sexually naive, people would attempt to convert me to new things that I had never done before. (In this sense, experimenting with things like S&M at the urging of the more sophisticated must also be said to be a form of conversion.) There are degrees of this, and my analysis is further complicated by my strong belief in free will. I think that if someone does something absent force or duress, that he should not be heard to complain. I have previously touched upon the issue of sexually "tricking" someone into sex under false pretenses (a man pretending to be a woman to score with another man), but that is a very different issue, and even there, it's neither voluntary, nor a "conversion" to anything.

    I'm not saying that no one ever attempted to convert me. In my youth I was approached by older males a number of times without my reciprocating, and I have no doubt that "conversion" may have been the intent of these individuals. But as to my first sexual experiences -- with teens my age, male and female -- I can honestly say that there never was any conversion, as I tried to keep an open mind about what I was doing, and I think -- I hope -- that others did too. This was a long time ago, and it was the age of Free Love -- when sex and drugs ruled.

    I can state more confidently that I was never converted to anything than I can state that I never converted anyone else, because as to the latter I can only say it was never my goal.

    I hope it never happened, and I'll explain what I mean.

    A major problem with me is that I cannot handle having responsibility for the actions of other people, because I can't control them, and it just isn't a fair thing to expect of me. If I thought I had "converted" anyone, it would be a bit like having a child. I would always feel responsible. And I run like hell from such responsibilities.

    But there's a real world out there, and when you're young, hot and horny, and there are other people running around, there are naturally going to be occasions when one of them is naive, yet willing.

    Looking to be converted -- to put it in Volokhian terms.

    Such types -- apparently heterosexual, but what you might call "bi-curious" -- used to regularly come on to me, and they'd scare the hell out of me, because I could not have handled the responsibility. Fortunately, I had a house full of openly gay men which I used to use as a "dumping ground" for the wannabe converts. All I needed to do was get them into the house, sneak out the back door, and drive away. The rest was not up to me.

    Am I guilty? If so, what am I guilty of? Putting person A in contact with person B has always been one of my specialties, and I don't see how I bear any blame. Especially considering my rejection of the gay straight dichotomy. The problem was that I felt guilty anyway, because my flippant attitude was often what had activated the "bi-curious" phenomenon. I felt even guiltier to see some of the people I had unloaded contract AIDS (they'd run amok in orgies with the people I had introduced them to), but if I never had sex with them and never had the virus, was it my "fault"? Anyway, I've been plagued with guilt for years, but that's just a feeling. A feeling that never quite goes away. (Imagine, if you can, feeling responsible for the deaths of others, and being told -- as I was -- that you were.)

    My fierce belief in libertarianism, in individualism, helped get me through some of this guilt, but when you watch people die, the rational side is not enough to stanch the emotional bleeding.

    No matter how I look at it, the word "conversion" evokes responsibility of the communitarian sort. The type that the rational side of me must reject resolutely.

    If I am to live with myself.

    As a defense to the arguments which others might raise, what is wrong with allowing individuals to make up their own minds about what they do, without moralists accusing them of converting each other? At some point in the life of most human beings, a time will come when they will want to have sex. With someone. If that someone is a member of the opposite sex, why would that be a conversion any more than if the someone were of the same sex?

    Why does the argument only seem to be about "straight to gay" conversions? What about gay to straight? Couldn't that be a conversion too? Seen this way, not only would the Exodus people be seen as trying to "convert" homosexuals to heterosexuality, but the first heterosexual experience of any virgin individual would have to be every bit as much of a conversion as it would were his first experience a homosexual one. I see no way to limit the word "conversion" to homosexuality alone.

    But what this would means of course, is that all people who have had sex were at some point converted.

    If that's the case, then the word "conversion" has no meaning -- which is why I tried to stick to the Volokh definition of the word as meaning heterosexual to homosexual only.

    This discussion is, I admit, very frustrating, as it touches on my abhorrence and avoidance of responsibility, and it is very personal. I mean, here I am, saying I don't believe in "conversion," yet I admit to have gone out of my way trying to avoid converting people because I didn't want the responsibility that rationally speaking I wouldn't have had anyway.

    It's a hopeless contradiction, I know. I wish I could find an easier example.

    Hey, how about conversion to Islam? Unlike the cowardly homos (who deny that they'd ever convert anyone), Muslims really know how to convert a guy! Why, it's even stated in their holy book to be a religious obligation. Unlike the craven homosexuals, Muslims need not feel any guilt over the fate of the converted. They are converts for life. If they try to go back the other way, there's this thing called the death penalty. For apostasy. I know of no homosexual equivalant. Gays who join Exodus can freely return to the joys of penile-vaginal intercourse, and no one will kill them for it.

    Which lifestyle is more dangerous?

    Hell, don't ask me. I never converted anyone to Islam either.

    (But suppose I meet someone who's Islam-curious. And suppose there's a mosque right around the corner . . .)

    posted by Eric on 08.24.05 at 01:43 PM





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    Comments

    While I don't think Volokh is homophobic, he has a history of taking homophobic assertions and explaining that if you look at it in a particular, peculiar way that nobody does look at it, it can be argued that there is an interpretation that cannot be dismissed as simply homophobic.

    On the subject of homosexuality, Volokh seems to enjoy empty exercises in sophistry.

    Here, for instance. The whole conversion myth is based on the notion that homosexuality is a choice. (Which always struck me as odd--did the people propounding this theory choose to be heterosexual?) "Conversion" is not about taking a person inclined to behave homosexually and convincing them to act on their tendency, but rather it is the act of convincing a heterosexual person to choose to become homosexual.

    Unless homosexuality is a choice, conversion MUST BE a myth and I couldn't believe the Conspiracy wasted so much time and so many bytes on such an empty discussion.

    byrd   ·  August 24, 2005 05:47 PM

    Well, if you're really careful about qualifying it, some sexual BEHAVIOR is learned--regardless of the details.

    Sexual preference is innate. And that's the difference: behavior vs preference.

    Teenagers are uncertain of their "preference" because they haven't yet fully matured into sexual beings (comes with puberty). They can feel pressured (one way or the other) and can experiment with behavior that may not have anything to do with their preference.

    I think it is ridiculous to believe that you can change someone's preference anymore than you can change a dog's sexual preference to mount cats. Sexual preference is as much hard wired as any other wiring.

    That said, if people can form relationships with people of the opposite sex (behaviorally heterosexual) and later determine that is not their preference, it would be foolish to believe that the reverse could not be true.

    But then, I used to know a guy whose mother wrote a book on changing your child's sexual preference. It was a complete fabrication. Her son actually sued her over it--"libeled." If you look in the dictionary under "Nelly" his picture appears--which made her book and the book tour revenues all the more ridiculous.

    Mrs. du Toit   ·  August 24, 2005 06:03 PM

    That's another great post, Eric. Brutally honest. My calabash brother is gay and seduces straights for sport- almost as if he is competing with their wives and/or girlfriends. He doesn't think of it as "conversion" however, he just thinks everybody is gay or else gay/straight, (or would be if they had a chance to be with him, lol). He's a trippy guy.

    If you don't accept the gay OR straight theory then conversion makes sense, I think. If a young man is mostly gay, say 60/40, maybe he can live a full happy hetero life never knowing what he's missing out on? So then it would be a conversion of sorts. (Not that that would be immoral, just to be clear).

    I don't dismiss the idea that sexual preference is innate, but it is certainly not binary. I know two women who turned to women because they had shitty sex lives- both of them ended up leaving their husbands. Both of them said the sex with other women was better than the sex with their men. One of them still prefers women and the othter is now happily married to another man... don't know if she is still with women too...

    The point being that when it comes to sexual preferences gender may nothing more than a powerful attractor- in some it might be all powerful, in others it might be no more of an attractor then straight white teeth. Ask the average 'straight' guy if he'd rather make out with Helen Thomas or any male of his choosing. If they were honest I doubt it would be an easy call.

    Cheers!

    Harkonnendog   ·  August 24, 2005 08:25 PM

    Extremely interesting once again!

    Eric Scheie wrote:
    "In my youth I was approached by older males a number of times without my reciprocating, and I have no doubt that "conversion" may have been the intent of these individuals."

    I had that experience, too. But it was obvious that they had no interest whatever in any ideological "conversion", just a night with a "pretty boy" (as I was at that time). I was myself interested only in girls, but I did not then nor do I now deny the moral rightness, for them, of being men's men. A man's got a right to be a man among men, as they say. (The Admiral, on the other hand, went a bit too far, so Wanda had to send him down to Davy Jones' Locker....)

    "# no one ever converted me to anything -- heterosexual or homosexual.

    # I never intentionally converted anyone to anything -- heterosexual or homosexual."

    Same with me. I've never had the time, the training, or the inclination to convert anybody else to my political, religious, or sexual orientation. I have thought at times that I might be more manly if I were a man's man, follow the Straight Path to the Upright Rod, etc., but I've never really wanted to. I'll continue to follow the Sinuous Path of Sin to the Encircling Captivating Curves of the Eternal Feminine. I've also thought of changing to a Lesbian, but all I'd end up as is an ugly female, which is even worse than an ugly male (the worst being the corruption of the best). I'll just stick with what I am.

    I'm Conservative. I'm against change. I'm totally -- and selfishly -- against this Communistic movement to change homosexuals into heterosexuals. The more men are men's men, the better for me because the less competition for beautiful women. And the more beautiful women are Sapphists the better for me on the deepest level, for there can be nothing more beautiful than Beauty loving Beauty.

    "(In this sense, experimenting with things like S&M at the urging of the more sophisticated must also be said to be a form of conversion.)"

    I have no use for that whatsoever. This is one more area in which I have become more Conservative, a Jehovanistic-style Gnostic. I prefer that sadism and masochism were as taboo as they were when I was growing up than a "sophisticated" fad as they are today. That's why I left the contemporary S&M "scene". I don't care for anybody who is merely "dabbling" in S&M as a "lark". I only respect those who, like myself, were captivated by captivity, bondage, and cruelty from early childhood.

    It is true that S&M resonates with Conservatives because of their love for hierarchy and discipline, which are the essence of S&M -- which is why Marxists and Politically Correct Leftists rightly (from their point of view) condemn it, as it is contrary in the deepest sense to their ideals of equality and fraternity. It is also true, however, that de Sade himself has long been rightly viewed by Conservatives as a subversive figure, explicitly blasphemous and chaotic. Sado-masochism is integral to Conservative ideology and theology, but its overt expression must nonetheless remain at least somewhat taboo.

    Sadism seems more aggressive and hence potentially subversive than does masochism, which is a discipline directed inward, characteristic of the saints of historic Catholicism. Thus it is that wicked Wanda loves de Sade while holy Dawn abhors him but sees von Sacher-Masoch as holy.

    Wanda's successful seduction of the bisexual Hannah strikes me as a quintessential example of this "conversion" Volokh was talking about.

    Holy Dawn struggles eternally against wicked Wanda's adulterous seductions, struggles ever to be faithful to her holy Negro wife Norma, the tight bondage of marriage, of eternal holy wedlock. "I am a captive Goddess...."

    I'm grateful that this is still a free country and a free blogosphere where Professor Volokh can say what he thinks. I try not to use the term "homophobia" because the way it's used implies that fear is evil. (Words like "claustrophobia" or "agoraphobia" aren't used in the same morally scolding manner.)

    I'm more afraid of people being afraid to say what they think than people who speak up even when it might not fit the conventional mode, because intimidation doesn't aid dialogue. That doesn't mean I have to agree completely with what is said, and hence, my post.

    As to whether sexual preference can be changed, I don't see any one rule, and I don't think it should matter to anyone except the people who might want to try it. I do think some people are born gay, others develop into it, and others just try homosexuality and find they like it. (In men this is compounded further by the physiology of the prostate gland; some straight men enjoy prostatic stimulation yet are not homosexual -- what should that be called?)

    Add things like love and loneliness, and it gets even more complicated. Standards can be bent. (Sometimes it's any port in a storm.)

    "Ask the average 'straight' guy if he'd rather make out with Helen Thomas or any male of his choosing." Well, many would lie and say they'd prefer Helen Thomas. But there's no way to draw an absolute line. The androgynous types (butch lesbians and fem guys) are confusing. People drink and take drugs. Seduction occurs.

    And I don't have the answers. There are too many people and it is all too complicated. I've seen too many variations on too many themes. I wish it wasn't so damned political. So invasive of privacy and dignity.

    Thanks all!

    Eric Scheie   ·  August 24, 2005 10:54 PM

    Steven thanks! (Missed your comment while I was writing mine.) You're uncorruptible!

    "I'm totally -- and selfishly -- against this Communistic movement to change homosexuals into heterosexuals."

    That's good too!

    :)

    Eric Scheie   ·  August 24, 2005 11:01 PM

    SMA that comment was hilarious! I was going to quote my favorite parts but there were too many, couldn't pick.

    Eric,
    "Any port in a storm." "People drink and take drugs. Seduction occurs."
    Yes- the saying is you can drink an ugly girl pretty but you can't drink a fat girl thin. But I've done it more than once.
    "I wish it wasn't so damned political. So invasive of privacy and dignity."
    Yeah. The politicization of private behavior is a consequence of victim politics, I think. For those who are dignified, and don't want to be indentified as victims- well, they are the victims of those that do.
    Cheers!

    Harkonnendog   ·  August 24, 2005 11:07 PM

    Dear Eric and Harkonnendog:

    Thank you!

    As to "homophobia", it's an anti-concept, a false, deliberately ambiguous term used to confuse and confound thought by conflating things that have nothing to do with each other. As Peikoff would say, it's one of those "dirty words!" that "nobody should ever use!"



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