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July 13, 2005
Stembryonics
Over at Bioethics Blog there's a longish post addressing some longstanding peeves of mine. The entire thing is well worth your time, but I would never ever do that to you. No, no, never that. I'll just give you most of it. Say, around ninety percent. Let's start with the obligatory bona fides. My name is George Daley. I am here today representing the American Society for Cell Biology, a professional society of nearly 12,000 basic biomedical researchers in the United States and 50 nations around the world. So, is this better than being the Addie Clark Harding Professor in the Committee on Social Thought? Speaking for utilitarians everywhere, I'd have to say yes. I am also clinically active as a hematologist at Children’s Hospital, where I see first-hand the pain and suffering inflicted by these diseases on children and their families. My career is dedicated to making a difference in their lives through research and patient care. Better and better. First hand experience on the front lines, as it were. Oh, and let me say right now that any emphases you see in this post were added by me. I am here today to state my strong support for Senate passage of HR 810, which has already passed the House of Representatives by an impressive and bipartisan margin. HR 810 would ensure that scientists can use Federal grant funds to study the wide range of valuable human embryonic stem cell lines that have been created since August 9, 2001, the date that President Bush announced his restrictive stem cell research policy. And high time, too. I am also here to give scientific perspective on the several additional strategies proposed for deriving human pluripotent stem cells...which are the subject of this hearing today. To put it mildly. They do it all the damn time, seems like. Why, no less an eminence than Big Windy himself has been known to say it, and he should know better. Back in the Bioethics Council's salad days they solicited the opinions of some researchers in the field. This would have been April 25, 2002. PROF. SANDEL: I would like to go back to the adult stem cell versus embryonic stem cell question, and ask it in a slightly different, and maybe more pointed, form. The President's Council is under no obligation to agree with the expert testimony they have requested. Lucky them. Back to Dr. Daley... Even after many decades of clinical experience, bone marrow [i.e. adult stem cell] transplant remains an aggressive and toxic therapy that carries the highest mortality rate of any medical procedure that is routinely performed. Bonus points for readers who made it this far. As a special reward, I've also imported the comments section. Just keep going and you can read a comment from Wesley J. Smith himself, one of those NRO "culture of death" warriors. Take it away, Wes! This whole thing is mainly a diversion. It isn't going to happen until 2009, if then. It's as simple as that. In my experience, when they tell you how simple it all is, they're hoping you'll just shut up and believe them. Moreover, if this is so important, there are plenty of billionaires who could sink a cool 500 million into the research... A fundamentally dishonest argument. Can there ever be enough billionaires? And what billionaire in his right mind is going to fund a line of research that may well be declared felonious? Specious argument? Why, yes! ...not to mention the states that are beginning to fund it (as their emergency rooms close for lack of funds). Cry me a river. They wouldn't need to if Washington was doing its job. The real issue is whether to permit human SCNT. The Bush policy is irrelevant to this issue... Oh really? From today's Instapundit... Specter has introduced a bill that would overthrow President Bush's executive order, which limits federal funding to a small number of human embryonic stem-cell lines. Specter's bill would open up funding to unused embryos donated by couples after in vitro fertilization. The House has already passed the bill, and the Senate was expected to do the same. Sounds pretty irrelevant to me...we now return to Wesley J. Smith... ...as it deals with leftover embryos and their use in creating embryonic stem cell lines. Yet, I often hear advocates try to connect this policy with the S. Korean cloning successes, when they have nothing to do with each other... Only if you squint your eyes really, really hard. Which is easy to do when your pants are on fire... But this is good politics. Make people think Bush is holding back the science... ...and confuse people about the rational distinctions to be made between "therapeutic cloning," which creates human life to be destroyed, and embryonic stem cell research using leftover IVF embryos. I believe the argument may be more nuanced than that, straw man killer... ...James Thomson took care of that little bit of obfuscation. Good for him. Science is corrupted by, shall we say, less than candid, advocacy. Huh. Civil discourse is corrupted by, shall we say, snide and self-righteous shading of the truth. Reason enough to dislike him, but beyond that, metaphorically speaking, he's been giving Leon Kass sweet culture warrior loving for years. On to our next commenter... The whole discussion is, as WJS says, a diversion. The goal is either the cloning for stem cells or stimulation of stem cells and/or stem cell stimulationg factors (just as we currently do with erythopoietin and other blood stem cell factors). Could we have a couple of examples that aren't Nazis, please? Actually, history is fairly equivocal on the subject... We're supposed to be so smart - let's learn from the mistakes of those who went before us rather than make our own by experimenting on our own offspring. It's hard to know what to say. Your offspring are quite safe? No one will forcefully harvest your precious eggs? Go to a hospital Beverly. Take a good look at all the sick kids. Just go as you are, you won't need a freaking microscope to see them. They're really big. Try and harvest a precious clue.
posted by Justin on 07.13.05 at 10:28 AM
Comments
Jason, I appreciate the rational tone of your response to Justin's post. It's easy for folks, on both sides of the issue, to get overheated at times. I think that (setting aside for a moment the areas of abortion and cloning) it should be possible for MOST folks to agree that unused embryos, donated by couples after in vitro fertilization, could be an ethically acceptable source of stems cells. The white paper created by Kass's ethics council argues that these discarded embryos need to be (effectively) dead before stem cells can be (ethically) extracted. However, many folks, myself included, are comfortable with the idea of harvesting stem cells from VIABLE embryos as long as the decision has already been made to discard them. Personally, delaying stem cell research (and accepting the pain and death associated with such delay) is FAR more ethically uncomfortable to me than the idea of harvesting stem cells from discarded embryos that haven't been allowed to start to rot FIRST. Just my perspective. Sean Sean · July 13, 2005 07:48 PM This entire debate is about the wrong subject. The current rules prohibit FEDERALLY-FUNDED stem cell research on all but a certain group of cell lines. The question to ask is "why exactly do we need to depend on the feds to fund this stuff"? If the promise is that great, shouldn't there be tons of capital invested in this area already? If there is not, either A) the market is not convinced of the potential rewards, or B) everyone expects the feds to hand out research money and can't make a move without it. I don't buy into C), which seems to be the implication that the feds might turn hostile rather than indifferent. If you have a big enough success thru stem cell research, no one is care about the source that much. Mat Larson · July 13, 2005 08:20 PM I completely understand the stated concerns about federal funding of stem cell research. However, FORBIDDING federal funding for most stem cell research is far more chilling than CHOOSING NOT TO FUND IT. What happens to state, local, corporate, educational or charitable entities that choose to support, endorse or facilitate stem cell research efforts? If ANY ASPECT of the aforementioned entities receives federal funding, does that mean that federal funding to those entities is threatened? Sure, it seems unlikely that federal transportation funds to the state of California will be denied because of the recently passed state proposition to fund stem cell research, but can't you envision some conservative congressman trying to score points with his constituents by using the federal stem cell ban as an excuse to hold up funds to California? What if the American Cancer society chooses to support the research. Do THEY need to worry about existing federal funding being held up? Rather than choosing to risk the loss of federal funding for OTHER programs due to the stem cell ban, isn't it easier for non-federal entities to avoid the issue by not supporting stem cell research in ANY way? Why gamble, right? I'd call that a chilling effect, wouldn't you? If you don't want federal funds spent on stem cell research, tell your representatives in congress not to put it in the budget. FORBIDDING such funding is a political act with repercussions far beyond the federal budget. Sean Sean · July 14, 2005 06:08 PM As the "next commenter": Go to a summit arranged by Genetics Policy Institute, as I did in June, you'll hear that embryonic stem cells are just a step to cloned embryos, as well as an open discussion of less yucky terms to use for cloning and harvesting of cloned embryos. For non-Nazi examples try Tuskegee,the many times that institutionalized children have been used for experimental subjects in vaccine and pharmacy trials (including the recently disclosed NIH HIV studies), and those lobotomies for unruly girls and uncontrollable inmates of insane assylums. Or you could just read the feminist history of the abuse of women by the medical community through sterilization, hysterectomies and childbirth. And don't forget Cary Buck. As to the children (other than those above and the ones experimented on by Mengele, of course): In June, Children's Hospital in Pittsburgh published research to show that adult stem cells multiply at least as many times as embryonic. Texas docs have participated in research using umbilical cord blood to replace bone marrow in children since 2001. My own granddaughter is an early recipient who is perfectly healthy without the twice-daily shots she need in her first year and a half of life. Beverly · July 25, 2005 03:48 AM Just to add a point or two: Cathi · July 25, 2005 11:03 AM I'm coming into this a bit late, but want to reinforce the point made by several commentators, that one can strongly support ESC research but oppose federal funding for same. My own opposition to federal funding here rests on tried and true liberal principles -- i.e., unless there is a compelling societal interest at stake, those with sincere moral objections to ESC research should not have to support it with their tax dollars. Of course, if the IRS operated with some form of fund accounting, the issue would be moot. But don't expect congress to give up its power to allocate the hard earned money they extract (or is it extort?) from you and me. That would be a bit too democratic for their elite tastes. Bob Koepp · July 28, 2005 02:13 PM |
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Sorry man, while I usually agree with you I have to part with you here.
I firmly support stem cell research, HOWEVER, I can't support Federal funding for it.
I don't agree with the Feds getting into this game until they can come up with a rational agreed upon definition of life, when it starts and when the state can end it.
Stem cell research will spin off into various cloning issues. I do not feel comfortable putting this into the governments pervue when it can be highjacked back and forth.
If they can sit down and settle the abortion issue rationally and settle the cloning issues rationally, then I'll support federal funding, until then lets keep the funding private (plenty of money there for it) so that when things get out of hand the government can be called upon to come in and shut it down for cause.
Give up the fed funds now and politics will control the research and debate.
I talked a bit about it here, a bit of a ramble, but it all comes back together.
Keep up the good work though, it's rare we disagree, and at the core of this issue we do agree. Just not on the federal funding.
--Jason